Saturday, November 12, 2005
First, we need to examine the question itself. Necessary to whom?
For most male feminists themselves, becoming a feminist has nothing to do with necessity. They disagree with the current conditions of/attitudes towards women, and agree with feminist opinions. It is simply a matter of ideology.
So anyway, are they necessary at all? They are useful, for one very depressing reason. The sad fact is this – male feminists are useful in either converting other men, or getting them to empathise with feminism. Why is this sad, you ask me? It is sad because, for most men, a guy with feminist opinions has more credibility than a woman with feminist opinions. The very simple, and extremely faulty, reasoning for this is that of course women will have feminist opinions. There are two kinds of men who think this: the ones who think that women’s opinions matter less than men’s opinions, and the ones who disbelieve women because they figure that everybody complains about their lot. And if there are men who are interested in it, despite the fact that it doesn’t ‘affect’ them (which is certainly not true), then it might have some legitimacy.
Michael Moorcock, a self-declared male feminist, once wrote an introduction to a book called Bird of Prey, and the introduction was also published in his own book Casablanca, where I read it. Bird of Prey is based on a play about sexual abuse. The book and the play were written by Steve Tasane & Carly Dreyfuss, and Tasane played the lead role of a female child in the play, in a desperate attempt to get the male-dominated world to notice the theme of the play.
So maybe we are necessary for now. But we’re hoping for a time when we aren’t. But that is the goal of feminism in general as well – to render itself unnecessary.
----------------
The comments to Amardeep’s post were almost as interesting as the post itself. One particular chap, Qalandar, made some good points, and then said the following:
by way of anecdote, I have learned over the years that my dating prospects increase in direct proportion to how “normal” (i.e. non-feminist) I seem to women
which interested me because I have had some confirmed non-feminists say to me that the only reason I call myself a feminist is that women like me better because of that. I can’t say it affected my dating prospects, but that is mainly because I have none.
In reply to Qalandar’s comment, however, I am inclined to agree with this comment, although I myself wouldn’t have used as many question marks:On a lighter note, what kinds of women are you dating Qalandar????? They would rather have you normal than feminist???? And they come from this planet I take it????!
What do you think? Women and men, please tell.
PS: By the way, I also have some thoughts on the fact that we have to keep calling ourselves ‘male feminists’ rather than simply feminists, but more on that later.
November 12, 2005 1:30 pm
Aditya:
Hey, I never called myself a male feminist (that sounds a bit pompous); I merely said that the more non-feminist I seemed, the better for my dating prospects (perhaps it would be better to phrase it so that being a Neanderthal and being a feminist are both (unfairly) viewed as "extremes" straying from a "norm").
One clarification that might reconcile the different experiences you and I seem to be having: I do find that desi women are more sympathetic to men they consider feminist and/or non-domineering (the two are obviously not the same), perhaps because there are so many examples of overt sexism that women face all the time...
...My comment referred to women that I have come across over the last 10 years in NYC; I think a depressingly large number of American women have internalized certain sexist attitudes...
[Of course, an alternative explanation is that you are dating the right kinds of people! :-)]
November 13, 2005 2:20 am
@Finchy: It's a sad fact indeed.
@Qalandar: Sorry, I now realise you didn't call yourself a male feminist - have made the change in the post. It is indeed a matter of different experiences, and both the reasons you cite are valid ones. And I think you're quite right when you say that desi women like male feminists better because it runs counter to most of their experiences.
November 13, 2005 9:59 pm
hey aditya,
tried reading that Maureen Dowd article, didn't get the point, and didn't have a heart to read till end. so don't know what the fuss is all about.
but man, there was so much in your blog that i went touche' about.
For most male feminists themselves, becoming a feminist has nothing to do with necessity. They disagree with the current conditions of/attitudes towards women, and agree with feminist opinions. It is simply a matter of ideology.
On the dot.
so is the analysis about why men end up trusting opinions of male feminists vis-a-vis female feminists. sad indeed.
-asuph.
November 15, 2005 1:20 am
Nice post, Aditya.
November 15, 2005 10:44 am
@Asuph: Thanks. Glad to see that what I say is confirmed by others - it is a depressing state of affairs.
@Anirudh: Thanks.
November 16, 2005 2:03 am
1."for most men, a guy with feminist opinions has more credibility than a woman with feminist opinions"...this is so so true,sad but true.
2.and even if females try and put forth their opinions,they are rarely heard(or even if they are heard, rarely are they taken seriously)...so i think, male feminists are needed...not because women are incapable of doing it by themselves,but because that's the way the society is!
3.as for the dating prospects-I think,women would anyday prefer a male feminist...the 'Neanderthal'kind of man is great at first, but later it gets very oppressive.
November 16, 2005 7:11 am
well said, June. That sort of thing is also why I dislike answering "yes" if someone asks me if I am a feminist. Not because I am defensive, but because this is something for people around me to say, not for me to fell self-satisfied about. And the fact that the "me" here is male, and the history of privilege that ties into, is a big part of my reticence...
November 17, 2005 11:52 am
@June: Absolutely. I'm with you on all counts. It is silly to expect every woman to be a feminist, and of course, many women and men who don't subscribe to feminism just wanna avoid the bother. And there is the social aspect - a lot of people don't like women who are empowered and outspoken, which are two major consequences of being a feminist.
And you're right, it is very important for male feminists not to dominate or subordinate female feminists. This is actually one reason why I don't post about feminism that much, preferring to point out essays by other writers. I don't want to be perceived as a swaggerer.
@Aboli: True, true. But about the last point, as Qalandar has made clear, he isn't talking about 'Neanderthals'. He is talking about normal men, who subscribe to neither feminism nor sexism.
@Qalandar: Actually, one of the reasons that I am still vacillating between calling myself 'feminist' and 'anti-sexist' is what you say. I am definitely anti-sexist, but perhaps whether my being a feminist is for someone else to judge. But still, there are many different definitions of feminism, and I fit into at least one of them.
But you might also want to consider this - if you are not sure if you are a feminist or not, how do you expect others to judge the same thing, when they don't know you as well as you know yourself? It's a thought.
November 26, 2005 7:33 am
hey! i have no idea how, but i managed to miss this post when it was written. im SO glad i decided to hop through your old posts this morning!
i dont think people will accept male feminists with equanimity - not in the near future at least. other than the fact that women feminists are in the first place regarded suspiciously, it just doesnt add up does it? why would anyone ditch the "winning" side?!
would love to read more about what you think of feminism, how you relate to it and why. its really interesting to know what a man's view of feminism is like - ive several questions on the subject and am very curious about it! :)
btw, have you ever managed to get hold of a book called "men doing feminism"? its on this subject and is supposed to be fabulous...
November 27, 2005 1:44 pm
Perhaps we won't be accepted easily ... it's hard to say, really.
'The Winning Side' mentality is hugely prevalent among people I know, and I keep trying to tell them it is not a fight. Very few understand.
I think I can brag a bit here and say that I know a lot about the male perspective on feminism, including the sexist perspective, having known many guys with a variety of opinions.
Mail me and I'll answer any questions you have, in as much detail as I can. If the discussion is interesting, I might even blog about it. My mail address is in the sidebar, but I'll repeat it: adibidi(at)gmail(dot)com.
I haven't read that book (hadn't even heard of it till now). Will see if I can find it.
Cheers.
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